Having children myself in similar grades as “J”, I can relate to a lot of the thoughts you express here. While good grades have become the goal in our education system at any level, it is perhaps in elementary school where standarized education hurts students the most. It amazes me how, at age 6 or 7, reading and writting skills, as well as math, get the same treatment as medical conditions: “standard test X tells us that your student is at a Y level compared to other students…”. Of course, this does not take into account at all the specific circumstances of that child: perhaps he/she is bilingual (therfore not as proficient -yet- in either language compared to a child who only speaks either one). I understand resources are limited, but we need to figure out a way to better aproach the different learning styles children (and students in general) have.

I agree with you that if students are too focus on the scores, they may neglect the knowledge itself and lose interest in learning. However, if the score is not the only way to evaluate the performance of one student (ex. other evaluate methods such as comments from teacher, or achievement from group project), both students and teachers will not pay too much attention on scores. Educators may need to explore other ways that are more effective to overall evaluate a student.

This comment was meant to be a reply to Sihui Ma… I think is in the wrong place but you can see the point.

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I like your expansion on the tool metaphor. The foreman forces everyone to use a hammer to see how they are with it, which has two problems. One, that someone might be able to do to the same job better but with a different tool (because someone doesn’t get a good score on a test, it doesn’t guarantee that will perform poorly on real work). And second, it can prevent non-hammerers from doing what they are good at (by focusing on a test score, you can’t see all the other meritable traits of a person).

Hi Homero, Thanks a lot for sharing this anecdote! Since I am also (I guess I should not say this aloud) secretly against GPA 4.0 students, I could not resist to jump in to comment I totally agree with you that GPA 4.0 says something (directly or indirectly) about the person’s adaptability to the system (in good and bad ways). The research also supports the hypothesis that the “leaders” and “losers” share the trait of not being able to “fit in” the system, and staying outside the box. In this regard, Bush’s comment makes a lot of sense.

Hi,

This dovetails very nicely into some of the other concerns that have been placed on assessment and other aspects for meaning in education and meaning in terms of a degree conferred at the end of a period of time.

I have heard the story about the introduction story in engineering from a number of places both here at VT and in other locations. I can only hope that those particular professors are are the odd ones out. Yes, engineering is a very wealthy field and the money it receives can attract many people to the discipline. I have heard of opposite story in the arts that say if you are here to make money leave since there is none here.

This is what makes autonomy, mastery, and purpose so critical to an individual’s success. Autonomy gives the individual the ability to choose a purpose and a line of inquiry, over time this leads to mastery of a topic or technique. With mastery we find certain kinds of synthesis and evaluation that is not present in simple understanding. This analysis then leads to the final part which is that thought with experience can lead to knowledge. The key as shown here is the next leap of faith that autonomy provides. The leap is experience and without authentic ones it can lead to partial or no mastery of a discipline.

It is interesting to see the proposal for a balanced approach to internal and external motivators. The unfortunate problem is that the average person has a minimal amount of internal motivation in terms of education.

The other side of this is what kind of positive external motivators are students getting especially from home? A person can have all kinds of internal drive but without external support they may burn out and not ultimately be successful.

So what about positive reinforcement externally from parents and other mentors rather than the simple negative reinforcement of poor grades? Perhaps the solution lies in more than one place, that we should not only be looking at the student as an individuals but rather the network the student has at their disposal for support.

I love the metaphor you present. As an engineer, sometimes it is difficult for me to see tests and assessment as anything aside from tests and assessments, but this makes it very clear. Sadly, I feel that educators are showing up to the job site to build the house and everyone is forced to use the same hammer so we can see who is the better woodworker. Now instead of focusing on how I can be a better woodworker (creativity, maybe invent the nail gun, or a different type of nail that is more easily driven) I am focusing on driving nails faster than the next guy because the foreman is watching. I may have taken this metaphor a little too far, but I agree that assessments should not be used as an end, but as an approach to education.

I have been in similar situations like the one you mention. It’s really sad that this happens, I again blame in part to the higher education system and its “mass production.”

Let me share an example that always frustrates me. One time in one of my classes we decided (in part based on Daniel Pink motivational ideas) to create a project called “Your passion.” So, the project was about letting students do research and a presentation about something that they are really passionate about, with the concept that we could all learn from that. The project had also a percentage on the final grade (about 10%). Our surprise the first time (and this was repeated over several semesters) was that students were doing projects that satisfied some of the topics of the syllabus. Instead of talking about something that they really loved like photography or a sport, they ended up doing something that related to basic engineering. It made me feel like they were just trying to satisfy the professor rather than talking about the things they were passionate about.

That’s another reason to change the system, right?

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I find your ‘required credit forgotten credit’ comment interesting as well. I do agree that the American counterpart to this is ‘C’s get degrees’. Some people believe that the A-F system should be replaced with the pass/fail system similar to some medical schools. I have a friend whose undergraduate degree is from Harvard, all of his undergrad courses were taken pass/fail. In highschool he was motivated (extrinsically) to get A’s so he could go to a good college. Once he reached college, he no longer was motivated because the grades didn’t matter as much. I do understand that in some instances this is a positive approach as it takes the focus off of the distinction between the A and the B, allowing students more free space in their brain where they usually worry, to be creative, but in my friends case the opposite was true. He used his time, well, let’s just say not studying.