I have a story for you.

My father went to dental school and for a period of time before he arrived the school had gone to a pass-fail system. The students took courses and passed. And this worked fine as having useful skills and chair-side manners and knowledge all mesh together when seeing the patient.

The problem did not lie in the method, but what happened afterwards. Students would go on to specialty training and their institutions would demand a GPA for admission. “Pass” did not qualify. For this reason the school went back to grades.

At least in my profession (Architecture) there is a basis that the knowledge is taught in schools informs us for an apprenticeship that is still performed before being licensed. Thus in school students are taught a method of designing, and then in the profession become accustomed to best-practices for the firm, and state.

Where do you think the issue lies for grade-free education? Is it in the university or society? Or is there no problem and it is simply a product of the current system? How would you try to implement it?

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Interesting stuff here. The vienna circle and logical positivism had a particular philosophy and it has a few issues. There are many ways to gain evidence though. Experiments are one, surveys, observational studies, ethnographic methods and the like are others (though not all inclusive).

So, I have an alternative to Riley’s complete rejection of the scientific method, rather a systematic method of exploration. And this is critical to understand is that the complete rejection of a method without an alternative method is “bad manners”, that without providing at least the framework for a solution, it can devalue your argument (as you have shown with your post when Riley does not share).

Phenomenology. It tries to bring into account all of the topics that Riley uses as the basis for contextual evidence. That we are people and we use our previous experiences to inform our current analysis and understand of the situation at hand.

Phenomenology is the scientific observation of happenings and objects (in its simplest form). Scientific here meaning systematic observation and evidence gathering. In many different writings and philosophy of science texts it is often pushed to the wayside and ridiculed for being relativist as it relies heavily on the interpretation of the observer (thus it is often seen as biased). However its basis in the experience of observing something it important for design.

So where I am going with this is that there is a method that is often more accepted in a particular field of study.

Thanks for this very detailed explanation of the testing regime in Iran. I learned a lot reading it, and the exchange you had with Xiang and Milad last week was fascinating. I think tracking and using standardized tests to screen are really widespread practices globally, but it sounds like the particulars of Iran’s system present fiendish challenges for would-be reformers. Thanks again!

Democratizing something is different from making something a democracy.

Students don’t have to vote for what kind of projects (democracy), but that you are making available a choice (democratizing). This gives them a sense of agency. With this agency is the feeling of accomplishment and engagement. I picked something I wanted to do, and worked my hardest to achieve it. Maybe giving them the agency to choose will show some kind of interesting connection between a known topic in the class and a hobby, giving the class a new twist?

And that new twist is the passion you describe. To move beyond the known and create new knowledge. Often this is the foundation for a dissertation, but it can also start a student on a line of inquiry to a specialization in their professional work.

Hey,

So one way to do this would be to mix the methods of assessment. There could be some traditional tests that can be used as a measure for accreditation bodies and then qualitative forms of assessment.

In architecture there is a system of low pass, pass and high-pass when showing examples of design work to reviewing body members. SO there is a way of reviewing qualitative design work for concepts and themes that meet expectations. It would also need to be accepted by the governing body of your discipline.

Hey,

So with everything there is not only the idea behind it, but also the implementation, and you have read about some and unfortunately experienced a not-so-great instance of it.

The dendrology class is an example of testing, but was it multiple choice? Expecting students to memorize long lists of trees for dendrology is the way the class is set up, to have a memorized bank of knowledge to identify trees in the field, and for that situation, re-testing is useful. It mixes an interesting way of telling stories to contextualize memorization. Here at Tech the class is a series of walks and field trips to engage the trees outside. Imagine if the tests had been multiple choice indoors?

I whole-heartedly agree that rubrics give transparency to the grading process and this can ease the concerns of the students. This not only could have been done, but should have been done in your example of the TA. We will go over some techniques for transforming tests and rubrics into another form of assessment later in the semester.

So what would you have done in the situation with your TA?

Change is scary. Scary because we boldly step out into the unfamiliar and uncertain territory. I think the questions you pose are great to ask, but I also think that it may cause many more questions to arise when we are trying to find new and different ways to do things, with our “old box” thinking. The more questions are good because it seems to be fostering the curiosity and motivation to come up with something more radical than what we currently know and understand.

As for Rogers…well I believe that as long as you can sit with the X on that slope, the then answers will work themselves out! And if not, then maybe something more can come of that hour next week sitting with X on that slope. :)

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Nice post! It makes me think about when I was in school before how the students hyper-focused on grades would ask each other after tests “What did you make”? Interesting how in thinking about that many parents do the same thing “How did you do on the test?” or “What is your grade in Chemistry?” Maybe we should be asking each other, or our kids, “So what did you learn?” or “How will you apply that it the future?”. So many students I have worked with over the years seem so disillusioned with school saying that things like “This isn’t something I will use in the real world, it’s a waste of time.” Seems like we need to be making more shifts in more areas than just the testing, right?

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Great question! How do we know if an instructor is being effective without measurement? I think some of that could be accomplished through evaluation of the teachers from the students. Just as students have benchmarks for learning, teachers have benchmarks for facilitating that learning. Perhaps taking a look at the outcomes of the students would be a reflection of the teacher’s ability to foster the engagement of learning, but in a more non-traditional way. Or maybe teacher effectiveness is viewed from a corporate employee standard where they are viewed on their performance (i.e. materials presented in class, showing up for work, continuing education, etc.). I think your question really gives rise to many more questions. Good thoughts and thanks for sharing!

I love the questions you pose here in your post. In my profession of counseling, it is difficult to measure success of sessions because of the subjective nature. I may think a session went well, but the client may feel the opposite. Both of us may be correct. In training counselors, there are tests (some really big, expensive ones) to make sure you are on a par of standard with taught material. However, just because someone has gained the education does not make them a “good” counselor. Again, that is all subjective and that can mostly be sifted down to how individual clients feel after working with counselors. Not all of our work feels good though. Fortunately in my educational program, there is a large emphasis placed on how the counselor is performing, rather than just if they are meeting their marks. Another fortunate thing for our program is the professors are very invested in helping you develop and grown into a good counselor. We have many ways to assess the developmental progress and measurements besides just tests. All that said thought, are we not our own harshest critics at times? Would we, the students, be able to be honest enough with ourselves for a true and honest reflection of measurement? More food for thought…